Chief Fidelis Tapgun is a former Plateau State governor and Nigeria’s Ambassador to Kenya. In this interview with LEO SOBECHI, the former Director General of Obasanjo/Atiku Presidential Campaign traces the fall of Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) and the moves by the opposition to defeat President Bola Ahmed Tinubu in the 2027 elections, stressing that unlike former President Goodluck Jonathan, Tinubu is in control.

Like you predicted, PDP has become comatose that it cannot wage electoral battles competitively. How does that make you feel?

Well, I don’t know whether to say it makes me feel bad or feel good, because everything that has happened was self-inflicted. And when you self-inflict yourself, then it’s your palaver. It is you that will look for medicine to cure yourself. It was self-inflicted.

If there was transparency and honesty from the beginning, we wouldn’t have found ourselves where we are; but people were just selfish, people were after themselves. This party was formed for the people. It wasn’t formed for any individual. That is why it is called the Peoples Democratic Party.

But people turned it into their own personal estate. Like I said, it’s self-inflicted. People who caused the problems are alive; they know themselves. The truth of the matter is that PDP still exists on the ground in Nigeria today, whether people like it or not. And it is the party that will outlive all the other parties that are on the ground, as far as I am concerned.

But we found ourselves where we are. And the elections are coming. There are two factions of the party. One is being supported by government, the other one is not. Of course, government will look for support, which is what they have done in this case.

And they have encouraged (Nyesom) Wike and they have seen his capacity to break the PDP into pieces. He said it from the beginning when they did this thing to him at the Eagle Square. He said, okay, we shall see. He has carried out his threat and it has worked.

But we are moving into this election. He is not going to play any role in this; he’s just there to cover up.  The government is firmly in control of everything, firmly in control, whether anybody likes it or not.

And this government, this President is not like Jonathan that was frightened out of office by people. Tinubu will not be frightened out of office. He will carry out his mandates; he will do what he wants to do and we will see what happens to the party after this period.

But what I just keep on telling people is that PDP is the only party that is really on the ground in Nigeria today, whether anybody likes it or not. And I’m sure even the President knows that.

It is just the leadership crisis that caused this thing and I don’t blame the President for encouraging the crisis, because he knows that if he had left the PDP the way it was, he would have had a headache in the coming elections.

But some people argue that since the G5 got the upper hand after Atiku people left, they should have rebuilt the party despite Wike’s demand that the party should forget about 2027?

That’s what I kept telling you – that the people were just after their own personal interest. The G5, where are they today? It is only (Dr Samuel) Ortom and the former governor of Enugu State that are with the Wike camp. Governors Seye Makinde and Bala Mohammed have gone.

So, you see why I told you that the people are just pursuing their own personal interest. If they had stayed together, things would have been different. That’s the complaint that some people are making about Peter Obi. The party is in trouble, you won’t stay and sort it out, you move. They didn’t stay; it’s only Wike that sustained the thing.

So Ortom is there, trying to hold Benue. Wike has got an appointment; the Ambassadors –Ifeanyi Ugwuanyi and Dr Okezie Ikpeazu – are technically in APC, because with the appointments you can’t say they are in PDP. So, they are technically in APC. You can’t say they are in PDP.

Then, Bala Mohammed and Makinde have gone and formed another party, the Allied Peoples Movement (APM) with Makinde as the presidential candidate.  They are strong PDP people. Makinde is doing well in Oyo State. Whether people like it or not, he did very, very well in Oyo, and Bala is doing very well in Bauchi. So, the question is why can’t you stay and hold this thing together? Stay with Wike, because at the end of the day, PDP will bounce back.

PDP has fielded Senator Sandy Onor as its presidential candidate, even though he doesn’t have the national clout to win the election. But in a number of states now, there are insinuations that the party, either through arrangement or electoral choice, can win some governorship seats. Do you think that optimism is realistic?

I’ve always been an advocate of candidates emerging by consensus of the people of the state. And the candidate must be a candidate that can prove himself or herself to be worthy of that position, not just imposition.

Every governor has moved to APC and they have the APC backing them. Now, where will you go and negotiate or tell a governor that even though you are APC, let PDP win. Where will you do that? And what explanation are you going to give?

What explanation would the national leadership of the party give to that state for failing to win the election in those states?

But there are states where defector governors have some question marks either about capacity or acceptability. Don’t you think that PDP can also, because of this handshake with APC, have some leeway?

Well, that’s what I’m just saying. You are talking of capacity or incompetence or something. If APC allows that it would mean they are incompetent; that is the truth of the matter. Accepting that the governors are incompetent means that they are incompetent. I mean allowing the governors to fail is accepting that the governors are incompetent. And how will they portray themselves to the public?

There are two state governors who were in the last batch to move like your state governor, Caleb Muftwang and Dauda Lawal. Based on what is on the table now, do you think it was wrong for them to leave PDP at the 11th hour?

Well, for me, I have never advocated for people moving from one party to another. It has never been my favourite stance all along. I have never wanted it anywhere. If your party is doing badly or has done badly, fix it. That is the only way we can grow. Discipline, it’s not about jumping.

So, I didn’t see any reason for anybody to move away from his original party to another. If you won on PDP, stay on your PDP. If you won on APC, stay on your APC. If you won on AD, stay on your AD. Why move to another party?

But I don’t know what was the attraction, what the Federal Government lured them with. Only God knows what attracted them. Like in my state, for instance, you know there were crises. And we know how the crisis started from the beginning and it didn’t end well with anybody. That’s why we lost the House of Representatives, the Senate and House of Assembly seats completely from the courts. Even the governorship, we lost at the courts. It’s just that the President wanted, you know, and asked that they should be.

So, it’s a faulty system itself and that’s why I’m just not an advocate of imposition for people to vote for. You don’t. If anybody is going to emerge as candidate, it must be a consensus of the people of the state.  And there must be a credible process of elimination for candidates who want to contest, to know their background and their capacity, including where they are coming from and if they can deliver, not just coming into office.

You have to come to office with something to deliver to the people, because that’s the essence of being a governor in particular. The problem has been in Plateau all along. They are talking about this, but I don’t feel comfortable with it. Because, it will look like, okay, if you say he’s incompetent, why did you take him into the APC? Now that you have taken him, why would you allow him to fail the election? And winning elections in Nigeria, you have to belong. So, if you think he’s incompetent, okay, why did you take him? Now that you have taken him, you wouldn’t allow him to lose elections.

Why I feel very uncomfortable about this is that the tenure should be two terms of eight years. They are going for the first four years now. Anybody that stops half way, his people will not be happy because of this sensitive nature of the zoning system all over the country, where the position has to move from one place to the other.

So, if it is eight years, and these ones have spent four years, and you say they are incompetent, and you want to change them, you bring another person to come and do only four years, the person coming must do only four years so that it moves.

That person coming to do four years, what is he going to do in four years? For me it means you are using the population as Guinea pigs. So, I don’t think that is the solution to all these things. The solution is to be able to have a system that spells out the conditions that candidates must meet before they emerge as flag bearers to contest elections, especially for governorship positions.

Looking at the coming election, do you think Nigeria will cross over this 2027 in peace and in unity?

It will cross in peace and in prosperity. That is the prayer of all Nigerians. We have gone through a lot. And for me, this President is the only one that has a vision of what he wants to do for this country more than all of them that have been in the past.

Honestly, he’s the only President that has come to office with a vision of what he wants to do for the country. And he’s pursuing them one by one. I think this is the only way we can gain from people’s experience in this country. It is not this noisemaking from the opposition that has been shouting all over the place.

So, all of these ones that are in the field saying that they want to take over, anyway, when they begin their campaign, we’ll see what they have to offer Nigeria. But, for me, I think we already have a government that knows exactly where it wants to take Nigeria in the eight years in office. Once it takes Nigeria there, I believe that the next person that will take over should be able to be that sort of person also, and take us also from that place for another eight years. That’s how we should be moving. That’s how the country will develop. It’s not sentiments.

I talked to some of my people in America the other day. They sent videos of young people who are just making noise on TikTok, abusing the government. I said, look, all these things will not work in Nigeria of today. We just want quick fixes. We are not America. America is celebrating 250 years of independence. They didn’t start like that. It’s a slave country. People suffered there. And they had to go through difficult periods in their lives to get to where they are today.

So, we are enjoying what people suffered 100 years ago. We are just 65 years old of independence and we are making noise. I said we can’t continue like this. This country has to grow.  What is going on today is a reform that we need to do and the pains that we need to endure so that our grandchildren –not even our children – and our grandchildren will benefit and the country will move forward.

We have to acknowledge people that are doing well. You are accusing this man of being a rogue, but he is delivering. Even though it is difficult and nobody said this was going to be easy. Even he didn’t say it was going to be easy. And he keeps on acknowledging that people are suffering, everybody knows. But we have to be patient.

For me, this election will go on very well. And the man will come back and he will restructure the country. I am just calculating in my brain. He will restructure this country, so that people will go back to where they were and start. Not people reaping what they did not sow and they are benefiting more than the people who did the sowing. I am very optimistic of this country. Nigeria is a great country and we have everything it takes.

For me, honestly, this reform that is going on is my greatest joy. And he is doing it without fear. So, I say the man has no godfather. He has no godmother. He came on his own. Therefore, if we are going to benefit from it, please support him. Let us benefit from this thing. Let the country grow.

There is a subtle attempt to polarise the country between North and South due to the influence and activities of former vice president Atiku Abubakar. Do you think the North will support the political insurgency of Atiku?

I don’t think so. I don’t know what he’s counting on. He’s my man, but I really do not know what he’s counting on. I don’t really know because if you follow the trend of what has happened since Tinubu came to office, he has tried to get all parts of the country together.

And this thing about the Presidency rotating between the North and the South, Buhari left. Tinubu took over from Buhari. Buhari wanted to give it to (Ahmad) Lawan in the North. That was why Tinubu said, no, this is our turn, the Yoruba time. And when he said Yoruba turn, he said it’s my turn, because he installed all the people. And he took it against all odds. They were all watching, they were all looking and he grabbed the thing from them. So, he’s just spending his four years, and you see he (Atiku) wants to take it away, to come to the North and do what for heaven’s sake?

Buhari did eight years. This man should do his eight years before it comes back to you. So, if Atiku wants to be president, he should wait until 2031 when this Tinubu government is over. Then he can contest. But anybody coming from the North now is not doing justice to himself or herself really.